Question #1: What shift have you seen in the American family that has led to this present fatherless generation?
Question #2: Believers often assume that their pastors have it all together and don't suffer the same wounds or go through the same struggles as ordinary Christians. Why is this not true, and how does it harm pastors when their members think like this?
Question #3: Have you had the benefit of an older, more mature Christian taking you under his or her wing? If so, how did it help shape your Christian walk? If not, are you open to this type of relationship? Why or why not?
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Answer 1:
ReplyDeleteI believe that the American culture has laid aside its desire for family values and has replaced it with a desire for keeping the peace within the home. There was a time when the disobedience and rebellion of the nation's youth was regarded as such, but it is now seen as "figuring themselves out." The music, the movies, and even the very clothes we wear come with the endorsement of 14 to 22 year old kid. When did the American parent decide they were supposed to be their children's friend rather than their guide? I believe this is the shift in the American family.
Answer 2:
I think that many church goers assume that when one is given the title "Pastor" their humanity somehow disappears in a cloud of holiness. While we should always be in the pursuit of holiness, that doesn't mean the temptations will not come. The devil is the privileged enough to know our every weakness and will not hesitate to exploit them. I also think that many people hold Pastors to a standard that they themselves cannot meet and then judge in the harshest of ways when those standards are not met or maintained. I think people want to believe that their pastor can live a flawless, obedient, life that is free of temptation since they themselves can't. I believe this is why most pastors have accountability with other pastors. If a pastor were to confess a temptation to a member of the congregation, through "prayer chains" or just plain gossip, the pastor would be called forth to account for his humanity. This is unhealthy for the pastors and only reveals that forgiveness is circumstantial when it should be unconditional.
Answer 3:
I have the benefit of weekly conversing with Frank P. and sharing my thoughts, concerns, and my prayers with him. As a young husband, a soon to be father, and a man who seeks to be in communion with God as David was, it's amazing to have someone who will see my shortcomings and doubts as things to be conquered in the name of Jesus rather than then just saying "I'll be praying for you" My main love language is Words of Affirmation and so his encouragement motivates me and lets me know that I am not the first man on earth to deal with certain issues. Thanks Frank.
It seems like our society continues in its moral desintergration. More and More our world is becoming a place where family is thrown aside for Mamon. Just walk through the halls of any Jr. Hi. or Hi. School. It is frightening to listen to what goes on even in the school hallways. So many young people are totally blank when it comes to living for the Lord. The world teaches them "if it feels good do it".
ReplyDeletePeople in church want to think that their pastor has it all figured out, has all the answers, no doubts, and the pastors fall into that trap and try to portray that exact role, but in reality we are all growing and becoming what God is calling us to be. The key word being becoming. Let us not ever put our Pastors on a pedestal that no man should ever be on except the person of Jesus.
Men like Dallas and Tino have played a great role as men that I could count on and trust and who would hold me accountable as a Christian man. Since my own dad passed on 25 years ago these men and others have played a vital role in keeping me sane, grounded and in touch with Christ. I don't think it has to be older men neccessarily, instead we all need to be there for eachother at different times, holding eachother up when others are in times of trial. We all need to be held up at times. As this new work is beginning all involved need be one, brothers, sisters, holding eachother up and encouraging eachother to be the person God is calling them to be. Kind of like a marriage - "for better or for worse" we are one in Christ and we never abandon the other. We don't worry, or have the need to manipulate, instead we trust the Lord totally and completly.
Question #1: What shift have you seen in the American family that has led to this present fatherless generation?
ReplyDeleteWhat shift? Hum let’s see the shift of a knight less culture, men have abandoned their right, their destiny of being leaders in our communities, they have taken on the desires of this world, they have fallen to our enemy and embraced that of selfishness, that of if it feels good do it, that of its all about me. They have lost their way of knighthood, no more do they defend the kingdom, no more do they honor their Princess, no more do they do battle against evil instead they embrace it because it feels good.
So with all this of course we have a fatherless society, they do not even know what it is to be a man, how could they know what it is to be a father. Their swords, if they even had one to begin with; are tucked away neatly and stowed in the closet. Replaced by pornography, replaced by selfishness, replaced by gluttony, replaced by behavior that honors no one but the enemy himself. Additionally what we are seeing is Sins of the fathers being passed down to a generation that is reinforcing this behavior, we need to cut the head off of this serpent and break this cycle. Bottom line they need to kick Satan in the Junk and KNIGHT UP!!!!
Question #2: Believers often assume that their pastors have it all together and don't suffer the same wounds or go through the same struggles as ordinary Christians. Why is this not true, and how does it harm pastors when their members think like this?
Ok, just got down picking myself up off the floor from laughter. What believers are we talking about? The ones still holding a bottle to their mouths? Pastors have it all together, yeah right just take a look at Frank :o) Just kidding bro. They have the biggest target painted on them! They are up front playing the Vietnam scout breaking the brush and clearing away, and you know what, usually the point man is the first to get hit. So they have struggles and attacks just the same if not more! They should have their own little fire team of prayer warriors doing nothing but uplifting him up and that Pastor better have a JONATHAN in his life who he can be held accountable to or that pastor is just waiting to get picked off. Immune HA.
How it harms him when members think like this it sets him up for an ambush cause know one is checking his 6.
Question #3: Have you had the benefit of an older, more mature Christian taking you under his or her wing? If so, how did it help shape your Christian walk? If not, are you open to this type of relationship? Why or why not?
Guess this is question is the ego boost for Frank. Older than me No, more mature Christian Yes-Came up through the ranks with Frank and he helped me and my walk, I have learned tremendous amount from him. I have had several relationships from other brothers who have built me up. I mean this is how we sharpen each other, by building relationships and growing together. I do not so much believe you have to get some elder type you just have to have a David and Jonathan relationship. Some of these old cats are too passive and majority of Church leaders today are well no way to put it Wimps, they are passive and are more concerned about P.C. Jesus did not worry about P.C. in the least why are we? So Two fold I believe a more mature can help, but believe it is the Relationship walking together that counts.
In answering the first question I have to look at the past 40 years. The shift in the American Family has come from the deep roots of unsatisfaction, offense, and then rebellion. Can we all look at the past 40 years and see that all families have been struck by the enemy at on point and time. Fathers themselves have lost there role and have been replaced by something else. Fathers have somehow put themselves in a distored role of being the provider for their families. Listen to me carefully. Instead of letting the Provider provide, the american man has taken on the american dream. More money, the bigger house, cars, boats, expensive vacations, retirement and the list goes on and on. In the process of being the provider they loose time. Time spent with God. Time spent with their wife. Time spent with thier children. Time!
ReplyDeleteThe result is first a jealous God! God will not let anything come before Him. Today, Sunday, Tuesday or any otherday. And so because God loves us He puts a level of discomfort deep down inside of us. Men have to choose then God first or the dream of success first.
Then the second result is the wife. She is made in the image of God and so she also becomes jealous. So she begins to resent that job or thing that is bringing all the stuff. And so again the Husband has a Choice to make my wife or the stuff.
Then just for good measure God gives of children. Flesh of our flesh to remind of of our true purposes. Dad how does my hair look? Dad can we go fishing? Dad come see me play today. Dad am I doing this right? But somewhere in the stuff the kids have given up on asking their dads for anything. They begin to ask teachers, pastors, and the guy down the street.
So here the father just a few years in his relationship with God, a few years maried to his wife, and few years raising his kids. He's stuggling, he's frustrated, he's offended, and nobody's on his side except the people at work.
Boom satan has a hold on the american dad. Boom satan has a hold on the american family. Boom the church looks the same as the World unsatisfied, offended, and rebellious.
Now at the beginning this response I wrote that the american father has distorted the role of being the provider. Just to be clear, who is our (humans) provider, and it takes faith, but is it not just wonderful that we have God that multiplies everyting. See what the father of the american family can do to restore his family is relax.
Aaron,
ReplyDeleteGood answer. I hope that all of us can be the Father that God intends us to be. You know as I think about your answer I think of Jesus the Son and God the father. Jesus was always about His father's buissness. Let's be the father's that our son's and daughter's can be about our buissness.
1. From my few generations of observing the family (Parents 1920's) to our current generation, divorce, abortion, and the loss of Christian values has driven us to a fatherless generation. The statistics are alarming. We are living in a culture who accepts life without family or church. Be on guard and ready to do battle for those of you who still cling to the cross. Victory is just around the corner!!!
ReplyDelete2. From everyone's comments it is obvious we are or have been involved with ministry at some level. WE know the truth. WE are human and fall into sin. Others whom we lead need to hear our stories and testimonies to know we are just like them and fall into sin because of our humanness. Being placed above others is a dangerous place to be. Your accountability groups need to be like mine...they know which buttons to push to get the truth out in the open.
ReplyDelete3. Always...as a Timothy...as a Paul...we need those who can speak into our lives as does the church need apostles, profits, evangelists, teachers, and shepherds.
ReplyDeleteAaron, stop sucking up to Frank so he will say good answer...Sheezzz
ReplyDeleteOh, almost forgot wheres Pete? he created this thing how come he ain't up on here answering? Oh I know its like his phone, he doesn't respond. HA
ReplyDeleteGood answer Phil. I was also wondering where Pete was as well. Hey, God bless you all, even if you have not had time to answer yet. God still loves you.
ReplyDeleteQ2: First of all, I believe our concept of "pastor" has been skewed because over the centuries mankind has moved away from the Church which Christ established and fashioned our own earthly transmutation "church" to fit into the comfort zones of this world's political and cultural mores. (ref: Pagan Christianity? by George Barna & Frank Viola).
ReplyDeleteBut I am sure the enemy is gleeful about this transmutation because what we have done is create an almost impossible situation for our "pastors" in today's context. God intended for pastors to be shepherd leaders, ie, servants of God to disciple/nurutre their fellow man. A true servant walks in humility, often behind the scenes, tending to the needs of others, mentoring love and grace, and serving at his Master's pleasure. If our pastors of today were freed to serve in this way, much of the power and escape temptations they now face would be removed from them.
Instead, we elevate them to a position of power (a misnomer picture of servant leadership): ie, 1)Place them on a stage behind a pulpit, expect their "revelations" of scripture to be somehow superior to revelations from any other saints'. 2)Expect their relationship to God to be somehow "more holy" than what is required of the rest of us.
3)Expect their level of temptation to be practically non-existent because they have been "set above" the rest.
4) Expect them to be all things to all people at all times.
5)In our fallen state, expect 1-4 above, but rebel against the spiritual authority that God has ordained to pastor/elders. (Related issue to Q1.)
And of course all this works together to create a culture of isolation and fear among our pastors. Who can be their accountability partners? Who can be their confidants? Who can be their unconditional fileo lovers? Who provides healing prayer ministry? Who shares with them the joy that comes from intimate transparency? Who encourages them in their moments of doubt when they aren't supposed to have those moments? And so it goes on...
If we are to be a church family, then we must be equally accountable. To have a pastor who is "set above" isn't what God intended when He called him to "set him apart". And sooner or later, sadly, what mankind does once we "set him above", is become critical and start chopping him down. Then we don't have a pastor, we have a broken man.
Re: Q1. The crescendo of orphaned hearts we are experiencing in our American culture today is a pattern of history repeating itself, and a foundational tool the enemy has been using from the beginning of time as we know it. I don’t despair because I see this as an opportunity to hear and obey God; our Father is calling us back to our roots as His children. He wants to teach us His Father’s Heart, so we can father and mother the masses in His Name.
ReplyDeleteThis nation was founded on the principles of freedom to worship the one true God, godly family values, and the "judeo-christian" work ethic. America began with the understanding that we need God as our creator/sustainer/provider/ protector/FATHER. But just as in ancient Israel, Rome, and other civilizations throughout the centuries...the more prosperous we have become the more arrogant and rebellious we are. Arrogant and rebellious children don’t believe they need their father’s discipline, wisdom, lifestyle; they just want him to continue “providing” for them. So they expect the provision, and believe it is their right to reject the rest.
But this isn’t so much a commentary about the children of this generation as it is about the fathers and mothers of this and generations past. Our children have learned by example, ie, the absence of experiencing the Father’s heart. They have orphaned hearts because their fathers and mothers have orphaned hearts, and haven’t known how to mentor their children with the godly love of the Father’s (Mother’s) heart. This is the fruit of satan’s key strategy from the beginning of time.
Just as the serpent whispered lies to Eve in the Garden of Eden, the enemy is here constantly whispering those same lies into our ears, and into the ears of our children. As fallen man, we so quickly step into the sins of pride and lust. The serpent tempted Eve (and therefore Adam) to MISTRUST, DISOBEY, & DISRESPECT God their Creator by promising them that they could be like God (pride) and gain all knowledge (lust for power). And so the enemy has continued to do through all the ages…His strategy is to keep us from TRUSTING God to be our good and holy Father, knowing that when we stop trusting our one true Father, the family is broken, and we are broken.
So the way through this is to go back to our roots, to the Father Heart of God, and receive the Father’s unconditional love and grace (and ALL THE DISCIPLINE & CORRECTION which is a part of that Love). Then, in TRUST & OBEDIENCE, we will be equipped to create Family, to become an expression of the Father’s Heart to all the orphaned hearts around us…and to mentor our spiritual children to become spiritual Fathers and Mothers…and so the Family will grow exponentially.
I think it is so interesting that all of the comments have our own perceptions/situations weaved in. Not wrong, just interesting....for example, Phil L with the military analogies. We see things from our own eyes. I tend to think (in terms of q.1) about the postmodern view and feminists that took over and decided boys should be boys and also have all of the characteristics of girls as well. As a teacher (me, putting my "spin" on it) I see boys stuck in a somewhat gender-confused world that needs all boys to sit quietly and read until they go home and watch the wonderful male role models on t.v.--NOT. Why is every father-figure on t.v. either weak or stupid? I agree with everyone on why we have a fatherless generation. We stepped away from a role that God called them to fulfill due to selfishness and greed. BUT as an observer of the young, I see boys that are never going to get out of that mold in the public school system. They do not have father figures and are stuck in a world where they are expected to behave like.....well, girls. {see Bringing up Boys by Dr. Dobson}
ReplyDeleteQ2. I do not think pastors have it all together. I know they don't. :-) ha! It is damaging when we put pastors on a pedestal. I am thankful to have special people in my life that I can talk to or be accountable to and they still love me! :-) Part of that, too, is having someone to share with that will not think differently concerning your spouse as well.
Q3. I am so thankful for mom (Price) and Golden. They have been such a blessing to me! I think it is VERY important to have spiritual mentors in your life. Frank and I are so thankful that God put Chris and Cathy Howard into our lives here in TX. Thank you so much, God, for knowing what we need and when we need it. Thank you for the wise instruction of humble pastors who have others to hold them accountable. Thank you for showing men how to be Godly role models. Thanks for the wisdom and Your words that are shared among believers! AMEN
Hi everyone! Sorry that it has taken me so long to get on here.
ReplyDeleteQ1. I believe that it has a lot to do with that America just wants peace in the home so some people think if it takes a dad moving out to get peace then so be it. When of course that is the wrong way of thinking. And maybe how families and kids as they grow up see that we are living in a world that thinks and is making it okay to have same sex marriages so to me I think to them they see that as well if thats okay then it's okay to have sex out of wed lock or to not make sure my marriage lasts. And I also think it has a lot to do with that our world makes our jobs and our careers so much of us that that is coming first instead of families and our marriages. And I also think that when the school took Christ out that is one less places that kids here about God and for some kids the only places they heard about Christ so they don't take it home either.
Q2.Well, I think this is not true because pastors are the ones leading people to God and the evil one will attack the pastor in a huge way, and in probably every part of his life because if the pastor is letting the evil one get to him then he can not lead his flock. The way I think the way it hurts the pastor is when he is trying to tell his church about how when you go threw hard times God is the one that can carry you threw. But I have heard it myself, many poeple when they hear a pastor saying this they say "what do you know, you're a pastor, what horrible things could you have been threw" and they turn away.
Q3. I have not really had this. Not someone that I would truly look back on and say that I really got something from it. I am very open to a mentor. I would love to share and in return get someone elses insight on something that they have been through as well, or hear their wisdom on the subject.
Q1. I think we are a fatherless generation because of divorce. I also think that we have bought into the what a man looks like in our generation, the Archie Bunker, Al Bundy and so on. Hollywood has a warped vision of who and what a man really looks like. In my experience, I know that the type of Father we were raised with or lack there of, or maybe not even a father around period, is all we know about fatherhood. In my experience with men, 1 in particular, he never knew how to be a father, his mom was a single mom, never met his father. I've learned that my son needs me, if not, he turns to the world to teach him how to be a man. I totally agree with you Brandy on all phases, men on tv are slobs, drink, play poker, not educated, etc. We've made divorce ok in this society, we think of marriage as a lease, it requires work, I know this by experience.
ReplyDeleteQ.2 Pastors are people too, saved by grace. Our pastors do experience trials as well, some people put their pastor on this pedestal above God. That's why when they fail, people are offended and turned off by the church. As pastors, ministers, lay leaders, we need to be humble in all we do and surround ourselves with prayer, accountability, and question 3 that Frank asked. One thing I've learned in ministry, it's not my ministry, it's God's, and maybe sometimes we forget that.
Q3. I never really had a true mature "Father type" Christian take me under his wing and I've never asked either, just my brothers my age. I would totally be up to having that. I do appreciate what Scott Price and Phil Kennedy has given me as examples, I've looked at them as Christian fathers and should have opened up more to allow that leadership in my life...like a lot of men, pride is an issue sometimes.
Thank you to everyone who posted on the apastolic blog. The answers where fantastic, insightful and ispiring
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